We've talked long and hard about the decisions surrounding the Space Shuttle and where to put them. I thought about commenting on Neil's thread, but I thought I would add my own post here. I personally have nothing to do with the space program and never have. One of my father's best friends was actually sitting in Mission Control during Apollo 13. He didn't rate Ed Harris or Gary Sinise, but we speculate that the actor that played "Johnny" in those Bud Light ads may have been him.
One of my sister's friends' father was on the shuttle mission immediately before Challenger and I graduated with the daughter of one of those seven. They used to live around the block from us. Naturally, they moved to a nicer neighborhood after the disaster. We never talked much in school, but I'm sure she would rather have her dad back. The point of all this is that for those of us in Clear Lake, the space industry is woven within all of us even if we don't work in the space industry. Seeing astronauts and rocket scientists is not a big deal. Hell, I married one of them.
So, the following is not an indictment on Barack Obama. I'm sure he was under a great deal of pressure to appease certain people and there were probably solid reasons beyond greasing palms. Yet, the whole process smacks of making something so complicated that there wasn't any way it could have turned out right. This is simple, when you think of space exploration, what locations do you think of? I know Neil Armstrong and the gang had a parade in New York, but that pretty much sums up their contribution in space exploration.
The representative from New York even argued that they should have gotten it because New York is the cultural and economic center of the United States. That's great, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Nebraska is quite literally the center of the United States. Should we send one to Lincoln? Kennedy Air Force Base (Florida), Johnson Space Center (Houston), and the Smithsonian in D.C. were three logical destinations. Let the rest of the country fight for the fourth.
Opponents of Obama will make this about Obama. It really isn't. If this happened under the Bush presidency I'm sure Houston would have gotten one since he is from Texas, but palms would have been greased elsewhere. Thus, the moral to the story is not about New York, New York, Walla Walla, Washington, or Light My Fart, Arkansas. It's about the failure to recognize simple achievement and work. This is a society problem. It's not a Democrat or Republican problem. A little of the Clear Lake area died this week. Obama wasn't the killer, but he's holding the knife and standing over the victim when the police arrived.
Thanks for the clarification Scott. And congratulations (I think). ;-)
Nah, my wife works in the industry and they are usually pretty tight lipped over there. Her company has warned them before about commenting to the press about such matters. So, it has nothing to do with you or anyone else on here as much as if my comments are deemed to embarass the company so to speak.
One last comment, Scott...very good idea!
"Reprisal"? From whom? Some NY'er with thin skin and big goons on a payroll? Over ownership of a retired shuttle? You're kidding, right?
The home boss has asked me to bow out of this one. She is afraid of reprisal and given my situation I'm not taking chances. Some issues are more personal than issues. I understand a Utah rep has proposed a bill to move it back to Houston. My compromise would be to put together a smaller display to rotate in museums around the country. I agree that Texas could have put something together that was a lot more thought out than it was. That being said, I'm signing off on this discussion.
They can't just put a really big parachute on it to slow the descent. Or is it decsent??
That thing would make a really neat attraction at Fiesta Texas.
"Who gets the ISS when we bring it down?????"
The winner of the Ozone Lottery? a la Skylab? Possession is 9/10ths of International Law, right?
Maybe we can shoot a Patriot missile at it to land within our territorial waters?
Ahhh, I snoozed and AH beat me to the punch line!
Ok, part deux:
"Hope I don't get the crapper."
C'mon CG, you know that after the orbital snub, you'd be happy to get even the crapper. Just don't try to stomp it out when it's burning. ;-)
Hope I don't get the crapper.
everybody in the U.S. and probably most of the rest of the world will each get a little burning piece.
Even though I read at a fourth grade level, it appears that we cannot blame Obama for this. Apparently, JSC simply adopted the philosophy, "We get one, you guys fight over the rest."
Who gets the ISS when we bring it down?????
Hey Doug,
Very good point...but we're going to do it anyway and the EBE's know it. That's why there here to help us get straigtened out before we proceed to do exactly what you suggested.
Totally off topic but totally fascinating:
The former lead scientist of the Naval Observatory and the once designated Mission Specialist for the 'future' Mars mission did a joint presentation last October and this is what they reported.
"Based on strict scientific criteria the odds that the 'Mars face' is an artificial construction are 1000 billion billion to 1 in favor. Translated that means beyond any scientific probability that the Mars face was constructed by an intelligent species.
The environment is being destroyed. What is the value of the space program? Maybe we should get things right here on earth, before infecting the rest of the solar system with our particular brand of debasement.
Interesting tidbit directly from the Congressional NASA Authorization Act of 2010:
"The Smithsonian Institution, which, as of the date of enactment of this Act, houses the Space Shuttle Enterprise, shall determine any new location for the Enterprise."
http://commerce.senate.gov/public/?a=Files.Serve&File_id=20a7a8bd-50f4-4474-bf1d-f0a6a8824b01
Blame the Smithsonian or Congress for NYC getting the Enterprise.
Thanks for the clarification JK! FYI, Carguy misses you here, as we all do.
Fair point but it just seems the selections were disjointed to me.
Honestly, Scott, I think you miss the point. The Orbiters are national assets and NASA was right to place them where they would have the highest outreach impact. It is precisely because we don't have a strong presence in major cities like New York and LA that I think it's good for them to go there.
I want people to come to Houston to see what we're building for the future at JSC, not its past.
Besides, Space Center Houston put in a wholly lackluster effort. There was no way more than one NASA center was going to retain an orbiter and KSC lined up the best exhibit design and financing. We hide our space artifacts behind a jungle gym.
The 2010 Authorization Act (which is not the Space Act that gives NASA its charter) says that historical connection should be considered, but it does not give it precedence over all other concerns.
OK, folks, so we wuz robbed...but really, how much effort did loudmouths like "Hipshot" Cornyn and Pete The Pirate put into making sure we got one of the shuttles...or did they just assume (like a bunch of people probably did) that Houston was a lead-pipe cinch 'cuz we're "Space City, USA"?
I'm disappointed too, kids, but what makes us any more entitled than, say, Huntsville, Alabama? Dayton, Ohio?
The Space Act stipulates that contributions must be used as criteria. The prosecution rests.
Actually a Babe Ruth statue is not really an apt comparison. I don’t think anyone in NYC or any Yankee fan would care less who has a statue of the Babe anywhere. Even Timbuktu. As for any Yankee historical memorabilia (or any team’s for that matter), don’t they usually go to the baseball HOF in Cooperstown? Granted it still is in NY State, but no one seems concerned about that. Or NFL historical memorabilia in their HOF in Canton, Ohio.
But it WAS about economics and tourism. This was the criteria for landing an orbiter and it seemed most Houstonians felt that a different set of rules applied to them (and it showed in their effort, or lack thereof):
“Olga Dominguez, NASA assistant administrator in the Office of Strategic Infrastructure, said when selecting the sites NASA sought out places offering the ‘best value to the American people’ with the ‘potential for broad national and international access.’ Museum attendance levels, access to transportation and regional population levels also factored in, she said.”
http://www.suntimes.com/news/4785109-418/abort-mission-adler-lakefront-wont-be-home-to-retired-shuttle.html
Aside from the fact that you DO seem to think that Houston has a birth right exemption, take a look at the different proposal display renderings and can you objectively figure out which one by and far was the dullest and most lackadaisical and showed the least effort or concern?
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-032911b.html
In other words, never mind the big picture or greater good, “it’s mine, mine, mine, mine” seems to be the overriding “justification”. And we saw how much sway that had.
Even if “kids in Houston deserve the opportunity” more than anywhere else in the country, don’t you think that maybe SOMEONE could have made an effort to back up that sentiment? Again, it seems ironic that a whole bunch of Texans seem to delight in bashing anyone else (and typically non-White) ad nauseum for “lack of work ethic” or a “sense of entitlement” but have no problems pulling that card themselves when convenient without any sense of irony or as NY’ers would say, chutzpah.
And if Houston did “deserve” anything from the Shuttle Program, wouldn’t it have been the simulator which is and has been in Houston and going to Chicago that should be causing the outrage? After all, the orbiter was neither built in Houston nor ever launched from or landed there after a mission.
Or maybe “Washington” saw all the education cuts by Perry as a first priority to save the tax cuts for the rich and the Christian Taliban SBOE curriculum overhaul and saw Texas as a lost cause for the future of our young?
AH, I'm happy you got as close as you did. It a rare job that requires consideration of micro-gravity in all things :-)
Me, I liked physics (for non-science majors) but didn't focus much on space travel and NASA. The fact that I worked there for so long was a fluke, but it turned out to be a pretty good match.
Hi Bobo,
You nailed that one...I hate being long-winded...but, as a young boy my great ambition was to become an astronaut, I was really consumed by that desire, I spent many a summer hour at the library reading about the space program. It seems contradictory but that motivation actually soured me on the educational system at the ripe old age of nine. There was no comprehensive coverage of space science in elementary school so I ended up just saying f*ck it. The double twist of irony here is that I never realized until I was a full grown adult that I never would have been allowed in the Astronaut corps anyway because I wasn't Anglo. It was much later in time when that barrier was broken.
Trust me, I hold no illusions about anything other than technical achievement of those good 'ol bygone days. I know full well that if it had not been for those equal opportunity achievements I never would have gotten as close as I did to my lifelong dream.
There was many a day as I walked thru the halls of JSC that I would see one of the old-timers and they would see me and I would get the look that seemed to say, "This place was a lot better and smarter before they let your kind in here!"
I hope my post didn't make it seem like I was overly criticizing Obama. Did we need to make a big presentation to get this thing? Is this the Olympics or the World's Fair? This was beyond obvious. The shuttle (or any other orbiter) is not about economics, tourism, or anything that would leave it open to discussion with cities that weren't involved. It is about scientific and engineering achievement. It's also about history.
Putting a shuttle in New York makes about as much sense as putting a statue of Babe Ruth in front of Minute Maid Park. He was a great baseball player and we deserve as much to bask in his brilliance. Pay no mind to the historical disconnect involved. Pay no mind to the fact that people in New York should get the first opportunity to a connection with their own history.
Kids in Houston deserve the opportunity to see what the previous generation built and crafted. They deserve to have a visual reminder that may inspire them to do more. It isn't so much that New York doesn't deserve that, but there would be an obvious disconnect. They didn't actually do it. They've done a lot of other great things and the kids in New York should hear about those things. They should have visual reminders of those things.
Now, if we wanted everyone to share then there should be a separate exhibit that can travel to the museums around the country. That way, every kid could have the opportunity to see great science and engineering in action. As for the Shuttles, they should go to those locations that had the most direct impact on it.
Hi, AH.
I don't disagree that self-importance is a disease. But although I never worked on the shuttle program, it galls me that a shuttle is not coming to Houston.
I don't long for some older, "better" NASA culture, either. The people I worked with were focused on doing the right thing no matter how many times the schedule changed or ISS flights were moved around and software packages had to be changed and tested and scrutinized for possible risks.
For those who long for the old days at NASA, I ask you to consider those old days from the point of view of those who were excluded from it. Like women.
I'm sure you know that the original mission control building didn't have a women's restroom. Women weren't even considered a possibility in that environment.
For more information about women moving into mission control and mission ops, you might want to talk to some old-timers about sexual harassment, required happy hours, and general hostility. I found it eye-opening.
I think NASA has many, many stakeholders and tries to please all of them. It's an impossible task.
I think this is where I got a little confused on the last thread, so maybe someone can help me out. Does one have to vote for or support a certain party to take pride in their state? Has it really gone that far?
I'm going to have to agree with Scott on this one, but I will admit that the sting would have been a bit reduced even if Mississippi had been awarded an orbiter. In my opinion, the "more people in NY" argument is weak because of their relative proximity to DC.
Being in Houston, I would imagine parochial interests would supersede logic, reason, the larger economic and educational impact, or the greater good of the country. But gosh darn it, Houston is "entitled" to an orbiter. And the wingnuts on the chron use those exact words without the least bit of awareness of the irony of their hypocrisy.
Who cares about the lack of effort by the city, state, and local politicians' to lobby and put a convincing proposal and plan in place to land a shuttle? We were exempt (or shoulda been exempt) from having to do that and "deserved" an automatic bye and just awarded one! An orbiter is Houston's birthright gold watch retirement trophy to do as it damn well pleases (i.e. to rust away as the most ignored and invisible behemoth in the country as the Saturn 5 rocket did at JSC for 30 years). Yup, we wuz wronged.
Full disclosure disclaimer: I grew up in Noo Yawk City but have considered Houston my permanent home for the past 20 years. I was also here for the 20th anniversary celebration of the moon landing and have been absolutely enthralled by NASA and would just visit the JSC by myself and spend all day wandering around there. I would have loved to have an orbiter here but not necessarily disappointed they went where they did. I also would not have been outraged if it went to Huntsville Alabama or Ames, Iowa either.
Don't worry about hurting my feelings. Many of those folks say the same as you. My argument for them is that they did the work and not an indication of the work's quality. Yours is a valid point and one I would not disagree with, but it is a point that deserved to be levied against the entire program.
As for this case, one could hardly argue that new York has contributed more than we have. A zero contribution does not equal even a bad one if that is what we are agreeing on.
ok Scott,
You obviously have a vested emotional interest in this, so I'll be reflective and not reflexive as I comment. Hmmm...
Really (this is just a thought that doesn't consider political ramifications)...the exemplary contribution to the Space Program that JSC contributed ended with the Apollo program...and they got their historical artifacts from that era. Having worked in mission control (main room), having contributed technically to avionic systems for the Space Shuttle, and lastly having contributed technically to software systems for mission control (all late in the game) it's sad to say but what I saw from the culture of our program JSC didn't deserve such a lofty reward. And Scott, this is not an indictment of any one individual but rather a statement of how a 'culture' can become corrupted by it own sense of self-importance.