Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
Or else I'll bust a cap in somebody's ass.
And you thought the Book of Armaments was fictitious.
Thy will be done,
Or else I'll bust a cap in somebody's ass.
Gov. Bobby Jindal has signed into law one of the more controversial bills from the recent legislative session, one allowing guns to be carried into houses of worship.
[...]
[State Representative Henry] Burns' [R-Haughton] bill would authorize persons who qualified to carry concealed weapons having passed the training and background checks to bring them to churches, mosques, synagogues or other houses of worship as part of a security force.
And you thought the Book of Armaments was fictitious.
Scott Said:
"I'll lay it on the line for me. I will never own a gun. I have a small child in the house. Hunting is not an activity I would enjoy, and I simply believe that carrying them makes me less safe."
Oilacct says:
That's your decision to make, and no one else's. Others choices may be different, and should be respected.
Scott said:
How we determine reasonable is the rub. I don't think a church is reasonable. I don't think any government building is reasonable. I don't think any school campus (including universities) is reasonable. I also think private businesses should be allowed to dictate whether citizens should be allowed to carry.
Oilacct says:
The brutal fact is that no law will prevent someone intent on causing harm from carrying a firearm in a prohibited place. Laws prohibiting carry create a group of victims, incapable of providing the least bit of self defense.
There are few government buildings where carry should not be allowed. That includes schools. If I have a CHL, why should I have to leave my pistol in my car when I pick up my child from the school nurses office?
Any church, university, or other place of business can prohibit carry if desired. In Texas, there is statutory language covering that situation. The decision should be up to the entity, not the government. One armed teacher, or student in the case of Virginia Tech, could have stopped the killings that occurred at Va Tech and Columbine. At Columbine, police waited until everyone was dead before entering the building. The victims were left to provide their own protection, but were unable to carry firearms.
I hear arguments that the Police will protect us. That's optimistic at best. Police aren't everywhere, and their main response is to pick up the pieces after an event. as for firearms ability, I've seen very few police officers that are competent with a handgun. Every time I've been at a range where police are shooting, the ordinary citizens are much more accomplished marksmen (and women).
Nothing says right-wing religious zealot like prayer and projectile weapons.
What I don't get is how when people want to put reasonable limits on when and where someone can carry it turns into a grand conspiracy to take everyone's guns away. Like any other president, Obama has done and said plenty that people can disagree with. We don't need people flipping out over stuff he has not done or said.
I'll lay it on the line for me. I will never own a gun. I have a small child in the house. Hunting is not an activity I would enjoy, and I simply believe that carrying them makes me less safe. Yet, if someone wants to go through the effort to make sure they are trained in how to use a gun then I am not going to protest their reasonable right to carry a gun.
How we determine reasonable is the rub. I don't think a church is reasonable. I don't think any government building is reasonable. I don't think any school campus (including universities) is reasonable. I also think private businesses should be allowed to dictate whether citizens should be allowed to carry.
Acct - even you have to admit that it's ironic the the Party of "family values" and "Christian Nation" is advocating the very UnChristian policy of carrying guns to church. WWJC? (what would Jesus carry?)
Yes, they are trying to intimidate those with whom they disagree.
I'm more afraid of an armed teabagger than I am of an illegal immigrant. And the day they start allowing guns in churches here in Texas will be the day I quit attending church.
Some of these "god-fearin' Christians" better be investing in air conditioning. They're going to be needing it for their eternity!
Anyone buying something as awful as Old Milwaukee deserves what they get. This is pure physics people. More guns equals more bullets which equals more deaths and injuries. Anecdotal evidence is all they got. "you think guns in church are a bad idea? Tell it to Slone Fortenberry from Light My Fart, Arkansas." They really can't argue numbers because the whole notion of protecting oneself in a church with a gun is beyond comprehension.
In Texas that woman would have been violating the law and arrested. Concealed means concealed - there is no provision in Texas law for open carry in public.
Last Sunday in Brookfield Wisconsin a woman (non member) arrived for the 9:15 sermon at a UU church.
The sermon of the day: Civil Rights VS Civility.
She had a Glock 9mm with her. She made a point of showing it off by wearing it on her hip for the entire service.
She was engaged in conversation by the members of the church while someone called the police.
She said she wanted to make a point to those in church that day.
Her point was that her civil rights were more important than the rights of the UU's to congregate in peace.
Do you think she was trying to intimidate those who do not agree with her?
Given the recent history of a stranger shooting up a Christmas play at a UU church the question has to be asked:
Does your right to pack heat mean so much to you that you will intimidate a entire group of people,including children, to prove a point?
I can just see the church sign now:
Welcome all Ye Sinners Who Enter Here unless we deem you unworthy, in which case, we'll blow your brains out.
Getting back to the MAIN point....I don't believe Jesus would approve. EVER.
And isn't that the main point about CHURCH?
Love your neighbors as yourself....not ready, aim, fire.
Bob, do you have any objections to letting the churches decide whether or not to allow concealed carry, rather than using legislation? Is there a good argument for not letting a church make the decision?
Regardless of Jindal's real motivation, any legislation that lets property owners decide what is allowed on their property, assuming an otherwise legal activity, has to be considered a good idea.
acct: Same answer. I'm simply pointing out the inconsistency in your argument. I'm not arguing against CHLs, I have one myself. I'm arguing against the idiocy and cynical issue framing of legislating guns into church. You and I both know that Jindal pushing this law has nothing to do with safety in church and everything with winning the next election. Guns in church for 2010 is what gay marriage was for the Republicans in 2004. It's just simply a tool to drive people to the polls. Nothing more, nothing less.
Bet you the next church shooting is accidental by a licensed carrier. Then we'll see how popular the law is.
I should have added that the predator senses fear just like any wild animal.
That's a good point...It's mostly a random event unless the vicitm is known to the assailant, which is the case in the overwhelming majority of incidents. The random cases are what capture the imagination of the public and if one is susceptible to bursts of paranoia results in a generalized FEAR.
Which is precisely why I don't obtain one...I hate to ruin all those pretty statistics.
Bob, it is legal to carry in a liquor store. The prohibition is for businesses that get 51% or more of their revenue from on premises consumption. You will have to ask the legislature why carry by ordinary citizens is prohibited in those places when it is allowed for off duty police officers who are no more immune to lapses of judgment than the rest of us. Personally, I think it's stupid to carry firearms when you drink, or if your judgment is impaired by other means. As for churches, they are free to ban carry on their property by displaying the appropriate sign, thus making it the choice of the property owner, not government.
I've been a crime victim several times, once by robbery at a time when carry was illegal. The perpetrator that time didn't display a weapon, but hinted he had one, then snatched my girlfriend's purse and ran off. I have to believe that merely displaying a firearm would have averted that crime. I have several friends who have averted crimes by displaying a firearm. Crooks don't want to die any more than the rest of us, and will generally run away if they see their potential victim is armed. Very few confrontations end in actual shooting.
Clearlakedoc, I'll tell my 5' 1" mother in law who lives in a bad part of town she should depend on her fists rather than her pistol when she faces a 6 foot 200 pound assailant. In your view, she should just stand there and accept her fate.
acct said, "Texas has had concealed carry since 1995 or 1996. I don't' think there's been any issue with CHL holders going nuts with firearms."
If that's true, why is it then that CHL holders can't take their guns into a liquor store or bar? It seems that, if they are all so stable, that we would want them to carry in their guns to shoot any bad guys that show up. Why is church different?
My what scared little darlings they must be...
To Mr Oilacct: Ive never been the victim of any direct personal crime, and yet, all ive ever carried is Lefty and Righty. Tell me, o wise one, what Great Wisdom can be gleaned from that little stat? Hmmm?
Hey Carguy-Is that a glock under that vestment or are you just glad to see me?
Alter Boy
RockHeadedMama, the requirements in Texas to prohibit concealed carry are more than a sign with "no concealed carry allowed". To comply, the sign must display the statutory language in English and Spanish in contrasting letters one inch high. The smallest sign that complies is relatively large.
Carry is prohibited in Texas in any establishment that gets 51% or more of its revenue from sale of alcohol for on premises consumption. Those businesses must display a specific sign, a 51% with a red circle and slash, to notify CHL holders that carry is prohibited. TABC determines the affected businesses.
To obtain a CHL, an applicant has to take a class, including a range test, and pass a background check performed by DPS. If the applicant meets the requirements, DPS shall issue the CHL. This is in contrast to places like California, where licenses are issued at the discretion of law enforcement, which leads to Sean Penn having a license(I think he finally lost it after yet another violent incident) while women who have restraining orders against abusers are told to suck it up and call police if they feel threatened.
The last set of statistics I saw show that Texas CHL holders are convicted of crimes at a much lower rate than the average. This is logical, as the background checks eliminate those most likely to do something stupid.
This issue is one that keeps me from considering most Democrat candidates, particularly at the national level. Their desire to prohibit the carrying of firearms by law abiding citizens reflects an inherent distrust of the citizens of this country, and an ugly, elitist attitude. I prefer to trust my fellow citizens, and see no reason why they shouldn't be able to protect themselves if necessary.
Texas has had concealed carry since 1995 or 1996. I don't' think there's been any issue with CHL holders going nuts with firearms.
I'll bet...
Hell, if we're going to open up to day care centers, liquors stores, etc., let's go all the way. Let's arm the OB/GYN docs and nurses and have a shoot 'em up in the delivery room.
Wingnuts make my eyes bleed (phrasing used courtesy of a friend).....
I've got a much better idea...since there are many more killings in liquor stores and bars, let's open that up, too; you could have a gun happy hour...bring a handgun for a beer; bring an automatic weapon, you get a free shot. You could really get a rousing start to your weekend with an old fashioned shoot-em-up while you're buying your 24 pack of Old Milwaukee at the corner store. Hell, to be fair, let's just open guns up everywhere; airliners, airports, high schools...how about child care centers? You know that child molesters and kidnappers always go there. You can just blow 'em away preemptively. That's a great idea.
That IS tricky. But it is very easy to hide it under the priest's or altar boy's robes.
Oilacct,
To presume that Ms Suzanne Hupp would have been able to stop the killer of her parents would assume that she would've spotted the killer and understood their intentions BEFORE they acted, which is a pretty big presumption. I think only FBI and SWAT people would have the kind of training to recognize that kind of situation. And they would have to be alert to this possibility while attending a mass service, which is pretty hard to fathom of anyone who is focused on prayer.
What is more likely to have happened is that her parents would still have gotten shot, and, had she reacted by firing back, a lot of other innocent people would've been caught up in the middle of a fire fight in the middle of a crowded church. And the odds are pretty good that someone else would've gotten hurt or killed, probably most likely Ms Hupp herself. And that is not a situation that I can see anyone with any brains or a heart feel any better about.
June,
"To get to the 250 figure "truthseeker" mentions, you have to count all those that occurred on church property, including non-religious events unrelated to the church."
Of course... I never said they were related to church or a person’s belief. I'm concerned about the ex-spouse that has gone off the deep end, or the person who feels helpless and is angry, or the clinical crazy person who hears voices. For instance, Larry Ashbrook in the Fort Worth shooting at the Wedgwood Baptist Church, he was calle a deeply disturbed individual that lived in squalid conditions, he left 8 people dead. Or A.P. Crenshaw who killed 4 people before turning the gun on himself, it was reported that is was just random.
Then you have Matthew Murray who killed Arvada, Colo, then apparently posted some rantings on the Internet, and drove to the New Life Church in Colorado Springs where he killed two teen girls. He also wounded half a dozen others before he was confronted by a church member volunteering as a security guard, and was shot. I like this one the best, I have always loved happy endings.
Enough with the speculating and wondering …lay out the data and prove your point.
• August 12, 2007: A lone gunman, Eiken Elam Saimon, opened fire in a Missouri Micronesian church, killing a pastor and two other churchgoers.
• May 20, 2007: A standoff between police and a suspect in the shootings of three people in a Moscow, Idaho, Presbyterian Church ended with three dead, including one police officer.
• Although not at a church building, the Oct. 2, 2006, attack in Lancaster County, Pa., by a gunman who killed five girls and then himself at an Amish school targeted a religious site.
• May 21, 2006: Louisiana. Four were killed by a man at Jesus Christ Church.
• Feb. 26, 2006: Michigan. Two people were killed at Zion Hope Missionary Baptist Church by a man who reportedly went to the church looking for his girlfriend. He later killed himself.
• April 9, 2005: A 27-year-old airman died after being shot at a church in College Park, Ga., where he had once worked as a security guard.
• March 12, 2005: A man walked into the services of the Living Church of God in Milwaukee and open fired immediately, killing seven people.
• Oct. 5, 2003: A woman opened fire in Turner Monumental AME church in Kirkwood, east of Atlanta, killing the pastor and two others.
Shortstuff,
Sorry but your wrong...
Self-defense is not just a right, but a Christian duty. Jesus told his followers, is Luke 22:36 "if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one,"
At my church were we are all family, and if a crazed gunman came in shooting at people that I care about, and I had my licensed firearm I would try and stop them. Also people that take the time to get the CHL knowingly have the responsibility to keep there skills up, which might come as a surprise to people on here.
You know us Red-necks all we know how to do is "cling to our guns and religion". Have a blessed weekend yall’!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember the concealed gun laws to NOT APPLY (here in Texas) to ANY place that denied persons on their property with a concealed weapon. If the property owner, or their agent, says orally or displays a sign, "no concealed weapons allowed on this property" it is prohibited. I wonder if churches in Louisiana can "opt out"?
Frankly, I'm more worried about some whackjob teabagger packing heat (while piously crying "Jesus Jesus") blowing me away, than any immigrant or trespasser coming into the church building and killing people.
Guns have no more business in a church than they do on a school campus.
you know, that really makes a lot of sense! BUT, how hard is to disguise a MAC-10 as a Papal staff?
I think I'm in your camp, carguy.
Since it takes a minimum distance of 21 feet to unholster a firearm and "draw down" on someone who is carrying a knife, your best bet is to just kick the crap out of them or keep that Bowie knife strapped to your leg at all time ...
Jeez, I can't believe this conversation is even taking place. It sounds like a good reason to not go to church though -- too many fanatics carrying weapons as well as trying to beat people over the head with bibles.
That Bobby Jindal is a hoot.
You all know I am 1/16th Cherokee. But I am one-half Cajun. Most of my relatives in South Louisiana DO NOT carry firearms to church nor have a need to. I think this is totally unnecessary.
A good 7 inch Bowie knife is really all you need in Church, due the close quarters,and all. If security is really an issue, arm a couple of ushers with Mac 10's at the back near the baptismal font.
All the folks here complaining about carrying in church, or elsewhere, need to talk to Suzanna Gratia Hupp, who left her then illegally carried pistol in her car and watched her parents die in Killeen. And, while you are at it, check on the statistics on incidents involving CHL holders in Texas. The risks of innocent bystanders dying are minuscule.
In reality, allowing carry in churches means that people who carry all the time won't have to choose between leaving their firearm in the car and breaking the law while going to church.
I wonder how many of those who killed others on churches' properties were member or not of NRA...
To get to the 250 figure "truthseeker" mentions, you have to count all those that occurred on church property, including non-religious events unrelated to the church. I would bet that a lot more than 250 innocent children have been killed in the last 10 years by dads cleaning guns or leaving guns around for the kids to use to kill themselves or other children. So, using the reverse of truthseekers' logic, people with children shouldn't be allowed to have guns in the home.
truthseeker,
I wonder how many people have lost their lives in the last ten years due to chance encounters with OTHER angry armed citizens. I wonder how many people in the last ten years have lost their lives in church due to unfortunate accidents or even 'acts of God'. I'm betting it's more than 250 in both cases (and I didn't check). It is a patently ridiculous argument that makes sense only when viewed from a perspective of nonsense.
Kind of like a lot of other decisions made that are based in fantastical thinking.
Right. I'm sure that people having a gunfight in the middle of a church won't end with innocent people becoming casualties. Because, as well all know, 'guns don't kill people, people kill people', and they obviously can't do that when there are lots of guns around.
i am at times confused. tell me again how they can pull a trigger when they are all wrapped up in the american flag:)
Praise the Lord and pass the ammo!
Why not carry guns in church? Many of these people worship the Second Amendment.
20/20 did an interesting piece on how well people respond to a crisis when carrying a gun. I'm guessing that if more people had guns in church 257 people plus 50 more would have been killed in church shootings.
The idea that packing heat makes you safer is a fallacy spread by the NRA. They love to spread stories about citizens shooting bad guys but somehow neglect to tell aboout the thousands that accidentally kill themselves or others. Carrying a gun may be a right but it's no panacea
Sorry, I don't buy that type of logic, "truthseeker". A house of worship should not be a gun range with target practice.
Besides which, this ain't Dodge City or the old West. (Even if we did have to put up with the Texas Cowboy).
I don't believe in vigilante justice, as so many of the damn teabaggers seem to do.
In the last ten years, 250 people have been violently killed on church property and already 7 this year in 2010. It seems so quickly you forget the lives lost even here in our home state. Had one person had a gun each of these how many innocent lives could be saved?
WWJD?
I'm pretty sure Jesus wouldn't be packing heat.
Some pretty sick, twisted, scaredy-cats around these days.
This law was a necessity due to the impending Hispanic/Iranian invasion horde crossing the border intent on the destruction of the good ol' USofA.