Just as the right scrambles to blame yesterday's plane crash into a building in Austin, TX as a left wing nutjob, about 600 people as of the time of this publication have joined a group called "the Philosophy of Joe Stack" on Facebook.
The discussions on the page paint Stack as some kind of "hero" for committing an act of terrorism that " is no different than what was going on in this same land over 200 years ago." They even provide documentation of colonial terrorism. There are continued comments about this not being terrorism, just a "disgruntled American" like all of those at the tea party, I guess.
While this goes on, Fox News runs a never ending loop about how he was unhappy with George W. Bush in an effort to paint him a liberal. The Tea Party internet movement says over and over again that this man said the right things. One man, sporting a swastika on his avatar says, "sorry but i cant be happier that he followed thru (sic) with what he said and he is right it takes a body count to get any thing done in this country or loss of revanue (sic)."
The new senator Scott Brown says "...I can just sense not only in my election, but since being here in Washington, people are frustrated. They want transparency, they want their elected officials to be accountable and open and talk about the things that are affecting their daily lives. So I'm not sure that there's a connection, I certainly hope not. But we need to do things better."
I don't care what his philosophy is - the guy is a terrorist who flew a plane into a building to get his beef with the government aired in public. Instead of playing the blame game, we should be working to publicly disseminate and rebutt false information given by these terrorist organizations. Oh, and perhaps we should dust off that old Homeland Security Memo the right got so upset about.
Karenk, and "sick" (how apropos), since you seem to find this horrific act of terrorism and killing and maiming of innocents somehow justifiable, want to offer up yourself and your family as whacko fodder for the next "understandable" attack? S'ok to be burned to death for just going to work at the office to try to make a living and to pay your bills? Just like at the World Trade Center? Put your money where your mouth is.
How can anyone in their right mind (guess that lets you out, huh?) condemn the action of terrorists on 9/11 and then praise this asshole in Austin?
HOW?????
They are exactly the same. They used the same methods.
They are all terrorists and anyone who is damned stupid enough to defend this Stack is too stupid to be allowed to enter a voting booth.
God help our country....
Why don't you guys read Rich Dad Poor Dad and subsequent books to find out who pays the taxes in America (hint - it's not the rich). Read beyond Joe's rant and anger and learn the truth - we are not represented in DC, the tax codes are messed up, and health care is still a mess - nothing's getting done. Terrorist or not - don't let two people die in vain - they are both American's an so are we all.
I want congress to do their jobs - representing Americans and cleaning up the mess (AND NOT JUST ON WALL STREET).
"He may have been an old white guy, but like anybody else who attacks the government of the United States, and causes death and destruction.... He's a terrorist."
Well said Miemaw! If you have a problem with the government, then fine. Do something PRODUCTIVE about it! And don't waste innocent lives for your own good. A terrorist is a terrorist.
Cleanup on aisle three! ;-)
Damn, how could I forget bart's other standard, default tactic of last resort: faux victimization and whiiiiiiiiine. Doesn't it ever get old or pathetic for you bart? It does for the rest of the civilized world.
“Hatefest” from the hateful pot calling the kettle black? You’re kidding, right? When nearly every comment from bart here or on the chron is an unsubstantiated anti-Obama screed not supported by facts but merely bart declaring "I believe this..." and "I believe that..."? Even when refuted by facts and supporting links from legitimate news sources? But nooooooooo (to quote the great orator J. Belushi), WE’RE the ones being "divisive"? And you're not a partisan? To quote Belushi again, HA! I don't see one single post from you anywhere that isn't near close to being balanced or even remotely left of a teabagger, much less not another vapid and non substantive anti-left, anti-Obama sloganeering attack. How many times are you going to sneer "change we can believe in" as your ONLY comment bart?
And for your information bart, highlighting YOUR hypocrisy in incessantly whining about purported name calling but then INITIATING attacks by starting off flaming posts with “moron” or “clown” is not a whine. Try to spin it however which way all you want bart. And pathetic oneupsmanship bart is reading my statistics backwards and then gleefully highlighting how “wrong” I was. However, you won’t ever honestly admit even once, “oops I misread that” or “I wuz wrong” even. For the FIFTH time bart, I clearly wrote 55,000 NATO troops and 68,000 US and not the other way around which you dyslexically misread and attacked me on. What was that bart? Did I hear an “oops”? Nope, just more bart double talk whining.
Moi whine about “being stalked” by vous? You’re kidding right? Please, child. Prove it bart. Or come back and say “I wuz wrong” for a change. Don’t just slink away from that attack and pretend it never happened when proven a liar again.
Now I have all the housekeeping out of the way, onto bart’s usual factual inaccuracies and logical fallacies. “Brown never defended Stack’s actions AT ALL”? Jeeze, for the SIXTH time between bob and I, WHERE in Brown’s apologia for White right wing extremists did he unequivocally say it was wrong? One word, “extreme” and then this:
“And I don’t know if it's related but I can just sense it's not only in my election but since being here in Washington people are frustrated. They want transparency. They want their elected officials to be accountable and open and, you know, talk about the things that are affecting their daily lives. So I am not sure if there is a connection. I certainly hope not, but we need to do things better. You don’t know anything about the individual. He could have had other issues, certainly. No one likes paying taxes obviously. But the way we are trying to deal with things and have been in the past, at least until I got here, is there is such a logjam in Washington and people want us to do better. They want us to help solve the problems that are affecting Americans in a very real way.... there was a message sent with my election...they want differences up here...”
Yeah right, I read from this Brown saying in no uncertain terms this is an unjustified, horrific, and unconscionable attack on Americans and innocent civilians. REALLY, bart? And Brown was NOT divisive and “he did NOT blame this actions on politicians from the ‘other side’ " when he said, “not only in my election but since being here in Washington people are frustrated” and “the way we are trying to deal with things and have been in the past, at least until I got here, is there is such a logjam in Washington and people want us to do better” and “THERE WAS A MESSAGE SENT WITH MY ELECTION” ? Honestly, you’re kidding right? No partisan pandering to the far right by Brown (and an overly high opinion of himself. Talk about Messiah complex). You don’t think Brown is guilty here of attempting to “demonize those they disagree with and "WIN" some kind of victory by being as divisive as possible” in YOUR own words? THAT is being “country first”? Maybe in Brown’s super exclusive far right only country. No bart customized partisan looking glass here right?
As for the race issue, again, you refuse to notice or acknowledge any dichotomy (re: hypocrisy) with Brown railing about security issues and the evils of terrorism when it’s a brown Muslim attacker (read the damn links for a change bart), but he provides an insipid, muted response that is even supportive when the terrorist is a White extremist, even when the horrific mode of attacks are IDENTICAL? i.e. flying a plane into a civilian office building to kill unsuspecting innocents? In other words, when the White guy that looks like MY America does it, it’s “frustration” and “you don’t know anything about the individual” and “he could have had other issues” and “no one likes paying taxes OBVIOUSLY” and “there was a message sent with my election” and “they want differences up here” and wanting “their elected officials to be accountable”? (WHAT freaking non sequtur of a Tourette’s outburst does THAT have to do with terrorism?) But when it’s (ironically) a “BROWN Mooslum”, the likewise “muted” tone is ““We’re at war in our airports. We’re at war in our shopping malls.” No difference at all in the response bart? “No problem with that at all”, bart?
Really, bart?
Bart, Bart, Bart - False claims and BS don't fly here. I've read both my and Bubba's replies to you. I fail to find any "name calling". Correspondingly I found nothing of what you call "hatefests" unlike on the Chron pages where no thread on the political pages goes more than 3 or 4 minutes without "socialist, communist, leftists" name calling coming in tsunamis. Most reasonable people left the Chron long ago, being run off by assholes and weirdos attacking anyone who is left of Adolf Hitler. I also read no "whining" nor did I read any personal attack.
Now, back to Brown...you argue that he was critical and called Stack extreme. True enough. However, what you are completely ignoring is that Brown then equivocated and actually made domestic terrorism and murder somehow about the government in Washington. He actually said that people hate paying taxes, and want "transparency" lending credibility to Stack's murderous act as a response to government policy. It was reckless and a response of an amateur thrust onto the national stage.
No "report abuse" keys here, Bart. You have to actually stand on your hind legs if you're going to play. How about trying a factual argument instead of the same old tired talking points?
Sorry if I one-upped you again with facts.
Just the fact that those here describe themselves as, backing people into a so called "corner" explains why I describe this site and many of its "contributors" as "hatefests". The general purpose seems to be "pathetic one upsmanship" to use your words and name call and make personal attacks,(which you also whine about when done back) or whine about being "stalked" or even about whining itself by others. Brown never defended Stack's actions at all. He did call for a change in the governments' atmosphere and operation when asked directly aboutit by Cavuto. He did NOT blame this actions on politicians from the "other side". Check YOUR OWN READING COMPREHENSION, he clearly said that this type of action being blamed of rage and frustration would be "extreme". As far as involving brown Mooslims, Chamberlain, Hitler, and that only "fristrated whites" have a right to make terrorist attacks, those are all words that you have tried to insert into his comments to charge the discussion with emotionally explosive references. For the record, I see nothing to fear from those who continue to lie about their comments being deleted by me. Most of the spirit that is here is exactly why Americans are frustrated with partisans whose only goal seems to demonize those they disagree with and "WIN" some kind of victory by being as divisive as possible. Yes, to quote another "Ethical" democrat who whined incessantly about how we continue to become "Two Americas" I see the fruit of this tree which is supposedly "country first". I believe THAT is what Brown was seeking. and I have no problem with that at all.
Nice shot, bubba...We'll see how Bart can take debate on an even playing field where random deletion is not the most common weapon. C'mon, Bart, give us YOUR best shot.
Always, Bubba. Always.
Thanks for stepping in first bob. Bart, I also call double bullshit on your pathetic double speak. Let's try one more time for comprehension bart. You said “trying to politicize” Stack’s act of terrorism was “idiocy” but then you turned around and claim nothing Scott Brown said was wrong? Well, which is it bart? Is politicizing an act of terrorism and a tragedy wrong or not? Because Scott Brown CLEARLY politicized this horrific incident to try to gain a personal advantage and if you refuse to acknowledge that, well that seems par for the course for your blatant bias and obsequious apologies for right wing crackpots.
Bart claims, “In the Cavuto interview transcript I see Brown calling him extreme, not ‘cozying up to extremists like teabaggers and nutcases’ at all.” Well bart, that’s because Brown spoke out of both sides of his crooked mouth, JUST LIKE YOU. Yes Brown called Stack “extreme” but then he immediately negated that limp and insipid “criticism” when in the NEXT sentences, he backtracked and qualified that weak denouncement and excused that heinous act by claiming, “you don’t know anything about the individual” and that “he could have had other issues” and then to even provide SUPPORT for the TERRORIST by stating “no one likes paying taxes obviously”. And you consider THAT a strong rebuke for an act of domestic terrorism? And not cozying up to right wing extremists? Like HELL it is! And then to follow that up by tooting his own fucking horn for political points? “There was a message sent with my election”? What the hell does his election have any bearing on a terrorist attack if he’s not trying to justify the attack? “They want differences up here”? And THAT is NOT political opportunism during time of tragedy to further his own political agenda and pompously patting his own back?
Well bart, what is it? More weaselly doublespeak from you or will you clearly and unequivocally state Brown is an “idiot” for trying to capitalize on terrorism in America and more specifically terrorism locally here in Texas for his own selfish political gain or not?
Sucks when you’re backed in to a corner and unable to refute a point, you can’t just delete opposing comments here, doesn’t it bart?
Shortstuff, thank you. I hope I have done Artemus Gordon (and you) proud.
Bubba, did I ever tell you I love you?
Pass the popcorn. I enjoy watching you in action.
Bart - Bullshit. Fox and the GOP (one in the same) have been courting the extreme fringe for years. Glenn Beck, who calls Obama "a racist", claimed that he was setting up "concentration camps", and other ridiculous shit is the most popular figure on that network. They provided continuous, wall to wall coverage of Beck's and Armey's 9/12 event, falsely claiming that over "a million" people attended when it was actually 60 to 70 thousand. They completely ignored a gay rights demostration with the same number of attendees just 3 weeks later IN THE SAME PLACE.
The GOP has clearly cozied up to nutcases and teabaggers, with national leaders speaking out in support of the ridiculous birther and deather conspiracy theories, as well as Beck's indiotic diatribes. Openly backing morons like Sarah Palin, and lying in a continuous stream about everything from health care to the 2 Bush wars, the connection is undeniable.
Brown should have condemned the actions of Stack, but didn't because there is a segment of the GOP base that believes what he did was actually appropriate. Brown gave this nutcase legitimacy by falsely claiming that "transparency" is the issue. You claiming anything different is also simply false.
I was referring to the exact quote listed. I stated clearly that this guy was "an idiot" and those who are politicizing it are also. Yes, if Pelosi said the quote listed, I would have no problem with it. The speaker has no bearing on the validity or truthfulness of the content whatsoever to me. I don't know why becomes to partisan ammunition. It seemed he (Stack) opposed memebers of both sides, agreed with positions that are quoted by both, and blamed both sides for his "victimhood". In the Cavuto interview transcript I see Brown calling him extreme, not "cozying up to extremists like teabaggers and nutcases" at all. Trying to equate this somehow to Chamberlain and Hitler is ridiculous. What age and race has to do with this escapes me as well. Why do people feel some compulsion to insert it into this?
Ah bart, here we go again, huh?
Your comment below: "Trying to politicize his stupidity in [sic] even worse. Frankly, I didn't see where anything that Scott Brown said was wrong though."
Well, I agree with your first sentence at least in substance if not style. That’s a first. Here’s the transcript and verbatim comments from Brown on YouTube:
CAVUTO: We have a guy who is just ranting at the system, ranting at the IRS, ranting at big government, the need for health care, not the need for unions – I mean really crazy stuff. I would just be curious of your reaction to all that.
BROWN: Well it’s certainly tragic and I feel for the families obviously that are being affected by it. And I don’t know if it's related but I can just sense it's not only in my election but since being here in Washington people are frustrated. They want transparency. They want their elected officials to be accountable and open and, you know, talk about the things that are affecting their daily lives. So I am not sure if there is a connection. I certainly hope not, but we need to do things better.
CAVUTO: Um, you know, invariably, people are going to look at this type of incident Senator and say `Well that's where some of this populist rage gets you – um, isn’t that a bit extreme?
BROWN: Well, yeah, of course it's extreme. You don’t know anything about the individual. He could have had other issues, certainly. No one likes paying taxes obviously. But the way we are trying to deal with things and have been in the past, at least until I got here, is there is such a logjam in Washington and people want us to do better. They want us to help solve the problems that are affecting Americans in a very real way.... there was a message sent with my election...they want differences up here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVaB-QlZZ5k
Now compare that to Brown's stance when the terrorist is a brown Mooslum:
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/18/scott-brown-terrorism-yawn/
“People are frustrated”? Is this clown for real? So “frustration” is justification for flying a plane into a Federal office building and killing, wounding, and terrorizing (hence the justifiable terrorist label?) innocent civilians? Only if the “frustrated” person is White, right bart? Muslims who do that are terrorists, but White people guilty of the same are LEGITIMATELY FRUSTRATED?
And he blames the politicians “not like him” but not the perpetrator himself for this horrific and heinous act and YOU don’t see ANYTHING WRONG with that? “There was a message sent with my [Brown's] election”? in talking about a domestic terrorist attack? And that’s NOT politicizing a tragedy and terrorism bart? Didn’t see anything wrong with what Brown said huh bart? Now why does that not surprise me?
I like your last sentence. The undercurrents of that scenario can almost make one lose faith entirely in humanity.
Bart, if Nancy Pelosi had said the same thing as Scott Brown, verbatim, what would your reaction be?
Bart, you can't be serious. Brown's implication was that if Washington was "more transparent" (new buzz word for giving into Republicans even though they're in the minority) then Stack wouldn't have crashed his airplane into the IRS trying to kill as many people as he can. He is couching murder as a response to frustration with the government. What Brown should have said is that "this guy was a nut, a home grown terrorist, and what he did was wrong, un-American, and criminal." He didn't.
The Repubs are definitely in a serious bind here. They have cozied right up to nutcases and teabaggers, so they are tippy-toeing around murder and domestic terrorism to keep from alienating the extremist vote that they need in the next cycle. Lord Chamberlain, meet Hitler.
Rather than try to decide which side of the political fence this idiot was so we can blame the "other guys" based on his manifesto, I can most accurately describe him as one who viewed himself as a "victim". That description usually justifies almost any heinous act in their mind (especially terrorism). To portray self pitying victims as "heroes" is just stupid. Trying to politicize his stupidity in even worse. Frankly, I didn't see where anything that Scott Brown said was wrong though.
If this guy had been a dark-skinned Muslim, the whackjobs would have been screaming "TERRORIST" and calling for Pres. Obama's impeachment, at the very least.
Since he was old(er) and white, he's somehow a "hero" or at the very least "some guy who had a beef with the IRS".
He was a terrorist.
Homegrown but still a terrorist.
And as a liberal, I'm all for capitalism, so that rightwing fable is just that....a fable.
If you want to take your own life, be my guest. You have that right. Do it.
But do NOT take innocent victims along with you.
I am sure Faux Noise must be spewing their usual crap about this.
The guy's already gotten more than his 15 minutes of attention.
Pray for the injured and the survivors.
And yeah, you got tax problems? Sell the damn airplane already.
I've always admired the bulldozer guys...now that's style. I often have wished that I owned a tank so if anybody cut me off in traffic I could just squash 'em.
This is a story about a guy who bulldozed his home, after he got a foreclosure notice from the bank that holds the mortgage. He also was having problems with the IRS.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35479612
He didn't take a life, not his own, not anyone else's. He bulldozed a house he built. And... he has served notice to the bank and the IRS... that he may level his business also.
I have more appreciation for the way he handled his problems, than I do the (terrorist) guy who burned down his house, flew his plane into a building, killed an innocent party, and took his own life in a suicide.
Destruction of property... especially your own.. is certainly preferable to taking life.... You almost have to respect, at minimum the creativity, of the guy with the bulldozer.
Truthseeker, I agree that I don't care what side he's on. Terrorism is terrorism. It's a shame we're talking sides (and yes, I did read what I wrote..LOL).
Keith, homegrown anti-government terrorists like Timmy McVeigh were what this guy seems to be all about. Oh, and I don't know a single anti-capitalism liberal. And I know a lot of liberals.
"Oh, and perhaps we should dust off that old Homeland Security Memo the right got so upset about."
=========
.
The one that labeled right-wingers as terrorists? Mr. Stack hated religion and capitalism. Doesn't sound like the memo was pertaining to him.
P.P.S. I would be more sympathetic if he had DRIVEN his 95 Nissan Sentra into the building.
left wing...One word will refute that spin...TAXES
P.S. Of my 20 or so democratic friends, NONE own a plane.
But 2 of my republican acquaintances do.
Just my opinion. But if I had a dispute with the IRS, I would SELL MY AIRPLANE.
BTW, that plane costs $230,000 NEW. an even a 2003 model is worth $192,000. Poor and homeless this guy was NOT.
That man was a terrorist, there are no two ways around that. It should not matter his political views, no matter if he was left or right. This is just sad, and I pray for his family, as they must be in shock from all of this.
Good grief! You ought to see all of the Joe Stack crap on Facebook now...people are insane!
I completely agree - this "man" was nothing more than a terrorist.
I am becoming more convinced every day that this country is going off the deep end - especially when people defend what the jerk did! How could anyone "praise" his actions, for God's sake!!!
If you read his "Manifesto" This guy was mad at everybody from the Catholic Church (why just the Catholics?? all churches are tax-exempt.) to the IRS.
He spent more time trying to figure out how not to pay his taxes.... than he did earning a living... so he would have the money to pay his taxes.
He was well-educated. He owned a home. He owned a plane. Supposedly, he was a licensed pilot. He played in a band.
Like most people who don't want to pay taxes...He also wanted a free ride.
What ticks me is that he was also willing to kill innocent people.... to get publicity for himself.
He may have been an old white guy, but like anybody else who attacks the government of the United States, and causes death and destruction.... He's a terrorist.
Nothing more, nothing less.