Chris Matthews Puts Catholic Bishop in His Place

Eymard, You actually have to read the post to comment intelligently. Matthews went after Tobin not over his OPPOSITION to abortion, but transgressing into lawmaking, then admitting ignorance of the lawmaking process. Matthews even said he AGREED with the Bishop's stand on abortion, but that it was none of his business to actually punish lawmakers for not toeing the church's line. Kennedy is not a congressman for the catholics...he's congressman for everyone including pregnant women. The bishop (and many other religious types) have been trying to impose their own particular ideology into secular laws. Matthews appropriately called Tobin out on that.

Oh, come on guys, even for libs like you guys chris’ arguement doesn’t hold water… Chris Matthews argument was that because the Bish because Bishop Thomas Tobin couldn’t delineate the EXACT punishment for abortion–if it were to become illegal–that some how he has no right to voice his opposition to it, or to tax dollars funding it? you’re not that thick, are you? Should Martin Luther King Jr. not have been allowed to voice his opposition to racist unless he first described what the penalty for racism? I’m against child pornography (as I suspect you libs are too), but i don’t know EXACTLY what the penalty should be–5 years? 10 years? 25? life in prison? death penalty?– so I guess chris matthews would tell me (and most of you anti-child porn libs out there) that we should first figure the penalty out before we’re allowed to voice our opposition to it being legal, or to my tax money funding it. what a foolish argument…
plus, that wasn’t an interview, it was just chris venting.
by the way, the bishop’s letter was issued in 2004… funny timing huh? with the obama care abortion issue and all.

MT4, just choked on my water -- too freakin' funny!

Look folks, to my thinking, we agree on several points --

1. No church, or their officials, need to get involved in politics. If they do, yank their tax exempt status.

2. A woman, and IMO, her partner need to be involved in the decision on abortion -- everyone else stay the hell out.

3. If you are sexually active, if you don't want to "do the time", for Gods sake, take precautions! You are responsible for a new life if you don't!

4. I am officially off of my soap box....

@carguy

Excellent! Are you exhibiting a vehicle? If so, which?

Oh, and lapsed Catholic here, too.

You "broke" a condom? You never know how long those ones in the men's room vending machines have been there.

Funny story, my wife quit taking birth controls pills due to headaches. She would always "volunteer" to go to the store and buy condoms if we were out. I asked her, "Don't you find that a little embarassing?"

"No", she replied. "I find it entertaining. When there's a guy there, they always look at you with a wistful smile. When there's a woman there they look at you, kinda wishfully, as if to say all right, I see you're lucky, you're getting laid." She was.

Bobo,

I love it...yeah, I can give up an argument but never a war... :o)

In truth, several years ago I told my ex that if she didn't try harder to see my way of things (at least sometimes) I would make her child support payments a little less convenient to receive. She took the hint and we haven't had a single real argument since...

@ machine..I've never seen them restrict photos at this event. Hope you enjoy.

@carguy

I'm looking forward to taking pictures there on Saturday (if the event allows). Look for the dashingly handsome bald genius with the camera gear. I'll be somewhere nearby.

Bobo,

that's interesting but what if a woman seduces a male into thinking he has a stake in the process? For example, when I got married I assumed that my wife and I would have a mutual responsibility for raising a child. If she had decided on an abortion I would have had no input worth considering? Of course, that never would have happened but she did decide with the help of the court system that I had lesser value as a parent than she did but that fact notwhithstanding I was considered essential for purposes of child support.

Please don't misunderstand me, I love my daughter beyond words and have always invested most of my time and money in her well being. My point is that between the system and my ex I was deemed pretty useless barring the exception of my wallet's value.

SST,

I forgot to mention that I am quite adept at abstaining. I've decided that is the only sane path for me.

Each couple will deal with it differently, but as a matter of law, the answer is no.

Regardless of the situation, when someone says it's not about the money; you can rest assured that it is most definitely about the money.

Oops. That's what I get for not reading through to the end of a thread before replying.

Carol,

yeah, I see...I'm way out of line...I guess I'm still fired up from the argumentative threads I was on the past couple of days. It appears I'm going to lose my beloved avatar as I think I've been banned. I just hope the idiots I was trading low blows with are unable to return as well.

ok,

my bad, I'll have to reread...

Scott,

the issue of the Eucharist...when I was married I felt that my wife was receiving the sacrament when her inner spirit was not in the proper state to do so. I never told her because I figured it wasn't my place to judge her worthiness. The environment I grew up in didn't take that aspect of church teaching lightly.

I did find it curious when my ex was told by her parish priest that she couldn't receive the sacrament because of her marital state (She's remarried and I'm thankfully still single) I just smiled my little internal smile and thought, "Finally"

AlienHunter, I could be wrong but I think the child support will still stand.

I believe what bobo's friend was saying is that men that are not directly involved, i.e. religious leaders, politicans,etc., really don't have a say - or should not have a say - with what the woman who is most certainly involved does with her body.

On this I concur.

I can't imagine they're going to have many takers as long as Ratzinger...er, Pope Benedict CXLIII...is in charge.

All sorts of people here were raised Catholic! Based on my experience, as yet another of the legion of people who were raised Catholic but who no longer are, I gotta say that, where matters of Church doctrine were concerned, we were absolutely _never_ supposed to "think for ourselves." What the Church said, or what someone or other thought they said (sort of like how many right wingers think they know what the Constitution "says"), was THE LAW. We were to obey. We were not to ask questions. It was the "sit down, shut up, good dog" school of Catholicism.

It sounds like Bishop Tobin is a supporter of that particular school of Catholicism. Too bad. It's one of the truly ugly varieties, and it does seem to hold a lot of sway.

I'm a proud Catholic and support the church's position on abortion. That being said, the church has no business pushing political candidates or policy. Generally speaking, I find their knowledge of politics to be lacking and therefore, they really don't understand how their policies could even be carried out or who will do the carrying out.

I tend to follow the Jesus teaching, "give to Caesar what is Caesar's and God what is God's". For me, that means that what the church teaches is the ideal and should always be the ideal. I don't want to the church to compromise its positions based on the needs and wants of the real world. Catholics should always strive for the ideal.

That being said, the church should always realize that human beings will never reach the ideal. Politicians must exist in the real world and will never survive to do good if they hold to the ideal. Most Catholics I know "live in sin" in one way or another according to church teachings, but we still get eucharist. We need eucharist or we will never reach that ideal. So, in short, I say keep preaching the ideal with the acute realization that all of us won't reach it and shouldn't be punished for not doing so.

I was raised a catholic, too. I agree with carolsb and pretty much had that conversation with a girlfriend over the weekend. She feels men have no say in the matter, including and especially bishops and priests.

I was educated by the nuns, the sisters of Notre Dame, through 8th grade. They emphasized research and reading over rote memorization as the mark of an educated person.

I personally feel that the policies of the church in south America, for example, create misery for those who try to follow them. No birth control? No family planning? In countries where dirty water regularly kills babies? Idiocy.

I hold all those priests and policy makers in contempt.

They're nothing but a bunch of hypocrites. They spent decades protecting and enabling child rapists. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the table to give the victims any measure of justice and even now are insisting that the known child rapists have earned their pension. They've completely bastardized any sense of moral authority they may have had at one time yet still seem to think they and only they should be the nation's moral compass. It's ludicrous.

I was raised Catholic too. I think, overall, it did me well. But this is a little over the line according to my compass. Maybe more thas "a little". I'm gonna have to check my notes from my childhood but I don't think the bishop has that authority. If so, he certainly abused it.

I don't have any problem with religious leaders expressing an opinion but the expressing should be where it ENDS.

As we discussed the "freedom of speech" provision in our constitution need to be revisited. But, the "seperation of church and state" was, I think, the best thing our founding fathers did.

Sorry I missed it live. Few things anger me more than the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy, a bunch of unelected, narrowly educated, authoritarian bigots. They speak for no one beside themselves. Most Catholics ignore them. Each member of the American Catholic church hierarchy had one vote last November, assuming they were registered and bothered to vote. My guess is that their preferred candidate lost. Tough. Now, they need to back off and let democracy work, a concept that most of them cannot begin to comprehend.

I saw this interview last night and loved it. I do like Chris because he always does put people in their place and call them out on the facts and apparent lack of knowledge of policy and law.