The year is 1965 and President Johnson approves a request from General William Westmoreland for an additional 50,000 troops in Vietnam, bringing the total force there to 125,000.
The year is 2009 and President Obama is considering a request by General Stanley McChrystal for an additional 40,000 troops in Afghanistan, bringing the total U.S. force there to 108,000.
Consider this from Newshoggers:
"Now we can't know what's being said in the oval office today but we do know what was being said there almost 45 years ago. The following are from the Johnson tapes as found in Reaching For Glory by Michael Beschloss.
Now they already know the war in Vietnam can't be won but notice the date when you look at the chart below. You will note that over 55,000 Americans died in Vietnam after the above conversations:
In light of the above, my message to President Obama would be this. Don't succumb to the political pressure from the advocates of escalation in Afghanistan just to avoid the accusations of looking "weak" or "indecisive." Carefully weigh the options and be sure that whatever strategy you decide upon includes a clear definition of success and/or victory and a time frame for either or both, not another open-ended commitment of our military to a foreign entanglement which deepens with each passing year.
One more thing about 1965:
"...in July President Johnson increased the force level to 125,000. By the end of 1965, the force had grown to 184,000. Two years later, it had ballooned to nearly 500,000."
As the Newshogger article concludes, "Don't let this happen again."
The year is 2009 and President Obama is considering a request by General Stanley McChrystal for an additional 40,000 troops in Afghanistan, bringing the total U.S. force there to 108,000.
Consider this from Newshoggers:
"Now we can't know what's being said in the oval office today but we do know what was being said there almost 45 years ago. The following are from the Johnson tapes as found in Reaching For Glory by Michael Beschloss.
Now we're off to bombing these people. We're over that hurdle. I don't think anything is going to be as bad as losing, and I don't see any way of winning.
~LBJ to ROBERT MCNAMARA, February 26, 1965
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It's going to be difficult/or us to... prosecute ...a war that far away from home with the divisions we have here. ...I'm very depressed about it. Because I see no program from either Defense or State that gives me much hope of doing anything, except just praying and gasping to hold on ...and hope they'll quit. I don't believe they're ever going to quit. And I don't see .. . any .. . plan for a victory--militarily or diplomatically.
~LBJ to ROBERT MCNAMARA, June 21, 1965
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We know ourselves, in our own conscience, that when we asked for this [Gulf of Tonkin] resolution, we had no intention of committing this many ground troops. We're doing so now, and we know it's going to be bad. And the question is, Do we just want to do it out on a limb by ourselves? I don't know whether those [Pentagon] men have ever [calculated] whether we can win with the kind of training we have, the kind of power, and... whether we can have a united support at home.
~LBJ to ROBERT MCNAMARA, July 2,1965
______________________________________________________________________________
Now they already know the war in Vietnam can't be won but notice the date when you look at the chart below. You will note that over 55,000 Americans died in Vietnam after the above conversations:
In light of the above, my message to President Obama would be this. Don't succumb to the political pressure from the advocates of escalation in Afghanistan just to avoid the accusations of looking "weak" or "indecisive." Carefully weigh the options and be sure that whatever strategy you decide upon includes a clear definition of success and/or victory and a time frame for either or both, not another open-ended commitment of our military to a foreign entanglement which deepens with each passing year.
One more thing about 1965:
"...in July President Johnson increased the force level to 125,000. By the end of 1965, the force had grown to 184,000. Two years later, it had ballooned to nearly 500,000."
As the Newshogger article concludes, "Don't let this happen again."
Afghanistan is just a training ground for foreign armies, and serves no other purpose. We have completed our training tour, so let's take our toys and go home.
First...I do agree this war needed to be fought. OTOH, it WAS damn convenient that Cheney and his Halliburton/KBR buddies got even richer off it. But through mismanagement we are now in a no-win situation.
These people know nothing other than war. The factions there will likely fight for control over the government FOREVER. Now we find ourselves in the middle of it with righteous intentions, mind you, but we're the only ones. You've got the corrupt politicians, the warlords, the drug cartels, the Taliban, and the anti-Taliban.
This SHOULD be a perfect case for UN intervention just like in Bosnia.
I think we DID win the Afghanistan war......for a little while. But we did not follow up and eradicate the Taliban. We did not shore up the shaky Afghan government and win the people's support. We shoulda DEMANDED the UN send in troops.
This is what happens when you do a half-ass job.
Speaking of eliminating corruption, now it comes out that Karzai’s opium-trading brother has been on the CIA payroll for the last 8 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/28/world/asia/28intel.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss
Interesting read here. Scary.
Rep. Jane Harman (D-CA) may have made the smartest statement I have read on our involvement in Afghanistan:
"I have been focused on this issue, and I am not one who is enthusiastic about adding U.S. troops. I don’t think that is going to fix the problem. I think what’s going to fix the problem is a massive effort by us, when we have leverage, which is right now, to fix the corruption problem in the government. It’s the corruption, stupid. If we just let Karzai operate going forward with a system of cronies I think that is a guarantee that the population of Afghanistan won’t support its own government and will move increasingly to the Taliban. So, that’s against our interest. So, we ought to eliminate the corruption there and set up a system where Afghans want to fight for their own country over time."
"Bush's dream that all Earth's people wish secretly to be pummeled into democracy and reborn into Christianity should have been taken seriously..."
loma, you nailed it. It will take historians years to analyze and document the extent to which George W. seriously considered himself ordained by God to become president. Most people probably missed the news that Rumsfeld actually included Bible verses in Defense Department briefings of GW, in order to appeal to his sense of self-righteousness. Not the first time, nor the last, that good Christians used their god as an excuse for war.
I have been opposed to bailing out of Afghanistan and have posted at length on it previously. However, the resignation of diplomat and former Marine and combat veteran of Iraq, Captain Matthew Hoh from his position in Afghanistan has caused me to reconsider whether we are there for the right reasons anymore and whether the conditions that initiated the invasion still exist.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/26/AR2009102603394.html?nav=hcmodule&sid=ST2009102603447
Having said that, anything short of a complete immediate withdrawal, I still believe that we need to increase the forces in the short term if nothing else other than to protect the undermanned and overburdened soldiers already over there. At least the current military and civilian leadership have reversed the previous administration's "strategy" of posting small numbers of American soldiers in unreinforceable and unprotected remote outposts in the bottom of a desolate valley this is at a militarily strategic disadvantage (re: sitting ducks).
But then what would you expect from a bunch of hypocritical draft dodging, warmongering, unprincipled, uncaring, incompetent, and arrogant Republicans?
My ex-husband's number was 4 the year Nixon then canceled the draft.
I'll say this... the adult children I see of Viet Nam veterans have not fared well. They are a generation of damaged families. We'll see this again in another 20-40 years.
This is the legacy of bush presidency. It was a simple war that became all too complicated. If Vietnam teaches us anything it is that all wars must have a clear and simple objective. This war doesn't have that anymore and that is why we are struggling.
Bush's dream that all Earth's people wish secretly to be pummeled into democracy and reborn into Christianity should have been taken seriously, and he should have been institutionalized along with Cheney. How the American people let those men run wild will never be forgotten - nor should it be. The Criminal Decade of America was unforgivable.
The Vietnamese didn't have a cache of ready nuclear weapons in their immediate proximity, nor a passion for attacking Americans on American soil. You also presently don't have the Russians and the Chinese riding herd over the Taliban nor Al Qaeda keeping them in check.
.
God forbid, if a Pakistani nuke goes off inside the US, what will your advice be then?
We get ourselves into these messes because we elect nincompoops as President. In 2000 we elected (well, the SCOTUS did) one who had some serious self-esteem and daddy issues. We're still seeing the results of that.
I guess little Georgie got a kick out of playing Texas Cowboy, riding in on a white horse and rescuing the Middle East. Made him feel "smart" and "powerful". The fact of the matter is, we can't rescue them. And it shouldn't be our business. American should not be the world's policeman, nor the world's nation builder.
Mission Accomplished, my ass.
I understand going after Bin Laden. Eight years later, we still haven't gotten him and he is God knows where. All because Cheney wanted more money in his wallet via Halliburton and Bush was a puppet president.
carguy - my draft number in 1969 was 191. My draft board went to 190. I literally got down a kissed the ground in thanks.
I agreed with our attack on the Taliban and the war on Al Qaeda. What American would not? But we declared "mission accomplished" far too soon. And our war in Iraq clearly made the problem worse, despite what George W. and de facto President Cheney still say.
This is a "no win" for Obama. You are right. If he DOESN'T follow the military, he'll be blamed for NOT lisatening to them.
IF he sends more troops, more will be killed, the conflict will likely drag on, and another Viet Nam scenario is very likely.
How do we get ourselves into these messes???????
Viet Nam is a vivid memory for me too. And, it was ALMOST an experience. My draft lottery number was 70. It was certain that my behind was gonna be in olive drab, in Saigon, in 1970, just in time for us to lose the war. MY luck, I would have been the guy who fell out of the last helicopter evacuating the US Embassy.
Several physical deferrments kept me out of the military. But many of my friends went. And several were never the same after seeing their buddies KIA.
I am gonna say what we said back then...."Mr. President, STOP this war. Bring our boys (and girls) back." This will ALL end badly NO MATTER WHAT WE DO. Leave it to the UN to handle best they can. It's NOT worth any more American lives.
This is another argument in support of universal conscription / public service. Were the lives of every American of draft age at risk, there would be no discussion of sending an additional 40,000 American soldiers to Afghanistan. Our military is distinctly unrepresentative of America. Broadening the military obligation across the entire American population, ages 18-30, would in my view make it much less likely we would wage lengthy wars of occupation.
Agree and agree again. Been there, lived through it and I don't want to do it again.
And if Obama doesn't follow the military's recommendation then he "owns" the outcome of the conflict from here on. There are no easy answers on this one.
Cornel West nailed it the other night on Real Time with Bill Maher. The difficulty with Obama winning the peace prize is that he now needs to be a peace president. Sending thousands of Americans into yet another quagmire seems inconsistent with his principles, or the honor he has been given.
I'm old enough to remember Viet Nam pretty well. I hope that we will not regret yet another Democratic president who could not stand up against the military.
I absolutely can't BELIEVE we are in a mess like this AGAIN.
Sometimes I think we must be the dumbest country on the planet. NO universal healthcare and now, possibly, ANOTHER Viet Nam.